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  1. #41
    Administrator Klaus's Avatar
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    Also the pool at reactor 4 is full of rods that were removed from the reactor during some maintenance. They are not used up but a full load of fuel.... Probably why they are REALLY concerned about that reactor pool.

    I say get more helicopters and add fire boats with the big water cannons. They just need to get the water into those pools and it sounds like AC power will be hooked up on Friday.

  2. #42
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    This doesn't appear to have done shit. The water sprayed all over, and maybe some of it landed on the reactors or in the pools, but would likely be vaporized within a short amount of time.


  3. #43
    Administrator Klaus's Avatar
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    Are the pools empty?

    ( Click to show/hide )
    Focus on food, water, shelter. Dr. Greg Jaczko is wrong and giving dangerously bad advice
    by Rod Adams
    At about 2:22 Eastern Daylight Time a journalist sent me a brief email to inform me that Dr. Jaczko had just told the House Energy and Commerce committee that the fuel pool at Fukushima Daiichi unit 4 was dry.

    I had just read a status report that indicated that the temperature in that pool as of the morning of March 15, four days after the earthquake and tsunami struck, had been measured as 183 degrees F (about 84 degrees C). Since fuel pools are normally maintained at about 100 F, my "radcon math" brain immediately told me that the fuel pool would not even begin to boil for at least another day after that.

    Even that was a very pessimistic number, because as the temperature in a container of water rises, the heat losses to the container and the surfaces increases. Of course, the elevated temperature was an operational concern - the higher the temperature, the greater the rate of evaporation and the greater the amount of fogging on the surface. (Think about what a hot tub surface looks like, especially at a ski resort where the air is pretty chilly. Now imagine that pool at about 60 - 70 F hotter. Lots of fog, not all that much water departing the pool.)

    In the past several hours, with a break for a nap, I have done a lot of fact checking and communicating. One of the nice things about being an old ring knocker (I graduated from the Naval Academy almost 30 years ago) is that you can have a pretty useful set of highly placed friends. Some of them gave me enough information to confirm what I suspected. I cannot think of any way to say this gently - Dr. Jaczko was wrong. It is possible someone in his staff provided bad information, but it should not be all that difficult to see the problem with some simple, back of the envelop calculations.

    I would think a guy with a PhD could do the math in his head - or at least enough of the math to ask for a verification of the analysis. I would expect someone who is in charge of a large, technically competent organization would double and triple check numbers and statements before going in front of C-Span cameras and a congressional committee and making statements and recommendations that distract the entire world from a real and growing food, water and shelter crisis. If I was in charge, I would not have asked anyone to evacuate any area that did not have a measured, significantly elevated radiation level. I would CERTAINLY not recommend an evacuation radius that was 3 times longer than the one recommended by a very technically competent host country.

    In all of this, there are far too many people who are far too narrowly educated and far too polite to strongly question the statements of people who have been appointed to a position of authority - even if they know that the appointee has no professional background that would provide them with the ability to independently verify their statements.

    In the interest of time, I am going to repurpose an email that I just shared with some colleagues and friends in response to a NY Times piece in which Dr. Jaczko is quoted as saying "We believe that radiation levels are extremely high, which could possibly impact the ability to take corrective measures."
    It is time to move from "extremely high" to real numbers. Kyodo News is reporting that the helicopter crews have measured levels above the cooling pool as follows:

    At an altitude of 1,000 feet, the dose rate was 4.13 millisieverts (413 millirem)
    At an altitude of 300 feet, the dose rate was 87.7 millisieverts (8.7 rem).

    http://english.kyodonews.jp/news/2011/03/78838.html

    Those numbers do not exactly match the normal equations, but I assume that the helicopter crews were reporting their elevation above the ground, not their distance from the spent fuel pools. I have no way of knowing how high those are above the ground, but the distance between the helicopter and the top of the fuel rods is shorter by that elevation. Those dose rates require some attention and care, but they are not, by themselves, life threatening.

    Based on those numbers, here is my analysis:

    The spent (aka used) fuel pools are not generating much hydrogen. They are not boiling away. They are not empty. UO2 CANNOT burn, it is almost fully oxidized already. (That is what the O2 part of the compound equation is.) Between 90-95% of the material in a used fuel pool is UO2.

    The water level in the pool at unit 4 is significantly lower than normal, which leads to higher radiation levels above the pools than normal.

    The measured levels can be caused by a reduced amount of shielding above the still radioactive used fuel. Pools normally contain about 6M of water, the tenth thickness of water is .7 meters. You lose 70 cm of water, the dose rate above the water increases by a factor of 10.

    As swimmers or hot tub lovers know, it is never surprising to see clouds of vapor rising from hot water on a cold day. However, even with an increased rate of evaporation, pools full of water take a long time to empty out.

    The temperatures in the pool at unit 4 rose from about 40 C to 84 C during the first 4 days after the quake/tsunami. That should give you numerically inclined people the confidence to assert that boiling off of 6 meters of water could not have occurred during the 5th day. (Don't forget about the latent heat of vaporization.)

    All that said, adding even centimeters of water back to a pool is not something that a few helicopter loads can handle. They cannot carry all that much water; the stuff weighs a kilogram per liter.

    It takes a 200,000 liters to raise the level of a pool that is 10 meters wide by 20 meters long by a meter. A CH-46 medium lift helicopter has a capacity of about 3,180 kg. It would require 63 trips to raise the water level one meter if my guess on fuel pool dimensions is reasonable.

    See why they want to bring in fire cannons to top off the pool? This is not desperation, it is simple math and logistics.

    Here is a great fact sheet from NEI about spent fuel pools.

  4. #44
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    I figured a lot of that "smoke" was probably just water vapor too. Lots of reports said there was some huge fire at the fuel pool though, so I thought something else must be going on based on that. Those reports could be entirely mistaken though... wouldn't surprise me.

    And I would not be the least bit surprised if that US official was talking out of his ass... wouldn't even be close to the first time.

    This is all dependent on those temperature measurements being accurate and the report of that being correct, though. His source on that would have to be very credible. But obviously if the temperature in the pool is below the boiling point, the water is still mostly there aside from some minimal vaporization... unless the pool was damaged somehow by the earthquake.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSNBC
    The dousing is aimed at cooling the Unit 3 reactor, as well as replenishing water in that unit's cooling pool, where used fuel rods are stored, Toyama said. The plant's owner, Tokyo Electric Power Co. (TEPCO), said earlier that pool was nearly empty, which would cause the rods to overheat and emit even more radiation.
    No idea about the validity of that, but it is apparently a quote straight from the company that owns the plant. That is the pool for Unit 3 though, not 4.

  6. #46
    Administrator Klaus's Avatar
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    Yeah but not "totally empty" like was reported to congress. I wish there was better sources for all this info it's all over the place.

  7. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klaus View Post
    I wish there was better sources for all this info it's all over the place.
    If only CNN still existed... I think BBC still does a decent job with international news.
    The artist formely known as Keion

  8. #48
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    This is not good from Link

    “…my prediction that ‘there is no credible risk of a serious accident‘ has been proven quite wrong as a result. It remains to be seen whether my forecast on the possibility of containment breaches and the very low level of danger to the public as a result of this tragic chain of circumstances will be proven correct.”

  9. #49
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    Update - doesn't sound like it's getting worse at the moment.

    UPDATE AS OF 11:35 A.M. EDT, THURSDAY, MARCH 17:

    Fukushima Daiichi
    The reactors at the Fukushima Daiichi plant are in stable condition and are being cooled with seawater, but workers at the plant continue efforts to add cooling water to fuel pools at reactors 3 and 4.

    The status of the reactors at the site is as follows:

    Reactor 1's primary containment is believed to be intact and the reactor is in a stable condition. Seawater injection into the reactor is continuing.

    Reactor 2 is in stable condition with seawater injection continuing. The reactor's primary containment may not have been breached, Tokyo Electric Power Co. and World Association of Nuclear Operators officials said on Thursday.

    Access problems at the site have delayed connection of a temporary cable to restore off-site electricity. The connection will provide power to the control rod drive pump, instrumentation, batteries and the control room. Power has not been available at the site since the earthquake on March 11.

    Reactor 3 is in stable condition with seawater injection continuing. The primary containment is believed to be intact. Pressure in the containment has fluctuated due to venting of the reactor containment structure.

    TEPCO officials say that although one side of the concrete wall of the reactor 4 fuel pool structure has collapsed, the steel liner of the pool remains intact, based on aerial photos of the reactor taken on March 17. The pool still has water providing some cooling for the fuel; however, helicopters dropped water on the reactor four times during the morning (Japan time) on March 17. Water also was sprayed at reactor 4 using high-pressure water cannons.

    Reactors 5 and 6 were both shut down before the quake occurred. Primary and secondary containments are intact at both reactors. Temperature instruments in the spent fuel pools at reactors 5 and 6 are operational, and temperatures are being maintained at about 62 degrees Celsius. TEPCO is continuing efforts to restore power at reactor 5.

    Fukushima Daini
    All four reactors at the Fukushima Daini plant have reached cold shutdown conditions with normal cooling being maintained using residual heat removal systems.

  10. #50
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    March 18 morning update

    There have been further developments at Fukushima overnight that have, according to the IAEA, made the situation ‘reasonably stable‘ (although it is still serious).
    http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/1...tion-tsunamis/

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