Unions

[Klaus]

Been kinda dead on here lately so lets start a topic about unions.....


One of my tasks at work each year is to calculate labor rates to use when we bid jobs (I am working on this today). My company currently does business in two states one is unionized and one isn't. Here is a quick break down:

Union state -

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $57,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $70,000

Non Union State

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $34,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $45,000


Of course that's just an example of the gross wages and does not take into account the benefits. This is where the big debate in Wisconsin right now is. I work for a private company and much like most reading this I am sure the increase in health insurance premiums etc has been passed on to the employees. With the unions I deal with the increases are passed on to the company. What my company pays the union for a hour of benefits for a union worker is approx double what the company pays toward my benefits, I pay the increases. Also, from the figures above you can see that the union members in my company have higher gross wages before you even consider benefits.

I know unions built this country blah blah but the question is shouldn't the market decide wages and benefits these days?

[Chadwick]

Absolutely.

And more to the point here government worker unions should be illegal.

Why? Because the government by definition is a monopoly. They have a monopoly on force. Thus there is no competing "entity" to give workers a better choice or to balance out the ridiculous handcuffing unions cause the entities they work for...with unnaturally high compensation.

They basically demand and get whatever they want and its up to the taxpayer to pay it.

Well the time of reckoning has come. The pyramid is inverting and will collapse. Wisconsin appears to have realized it and done something, we'll see if they get yelled down or not.

[Ender]

Absolutely.

And more to the point here government worker unions should be illegal.

Why? Because the government by definition is a monopoly. They have a monopoly on force. Thus there is no competing "entity" to give workers a better choice or to balance out the ridiculous handcuffing unions cause the entities they work for...with unnaturally high compensation.

They basically demand and get whatever they want and its up to the taxpayer to pay it.

Well the time of reckoning has come. The pyramid is inverting and will collapse. Wisconsin appears to have realized it and done something, we'll see if they get yelled down or not.

So you want a bunch of private companies and corporations doing all of the governmental regulatory work? Yeah, lets see how long it takes before that completely corrupts the governmental system. At least with unions there is some accountability. Its scary to think how much tax payer money taken from local governments (cities) would be going into the pockets of private company executives in that case.

Someone has to enforce the laws that are passed, otherwise they are meaningless. If you don't have the workforce necessary to enforce those laws, people will just take advantage of the situation by not paying attention to them. Why worry about a law if not abiding by it leads to no consequences?

However, I think the government can and should be streamlined. Believe me, as a government worker, I can tell you that it does not operate efficiently. But, I think that can be done in a way that doesn't result in drastic wage decreases across the board or cutting out people's benifits. There would likely be some loss of jobs though after restructuring.

But, there are definately some government employees in certain sections that seem to have way too much time on their hands. I am not one of them, however, and as such I expect to be compensated fairly. I make around 45k per year prior to taxes and have been working there for 5 years. I don't consider that to be a gross overpayment of salary considering what I do.

[Chadwick]

So you want a bunch of private companies and corporations doing all of the governmental regulatory work? Yeah, lets see how long it takes before that completely corrupts the governmental system. At least with unions there is some accountability. Its scary to think how much tax payer money taken from local governments (cities) would be going into the pockets of private company executives in that case.

Someone has to enforce the laws that are passed, otherwise they are meaningless. If you don't have the workforce necessary to enforce those laws, people will just take advantage of the situation by not paying attention to them. Why worry about a law if not abiding by it leads to no consequences?

However, I think the government can and should be streamlined. Believe me, as a government worker, I can tell you that it does not operate efficiently. But, I think that can be done in a way that doesn't result in drastic wage decreases across the board or cutting out people's benifits. There would likely be some loss of jobs though after restructuring.

But, there are definately some government employees in certain sections that seem to have way too much time on their hands. I am not one of them, however, and as such I expect to be compensated fairly. I make around 45k per year prior to taxes and have been working there for 5 years. I don't consider that to be a gross overpayment of salary considering what I do.

1) I am by no means saying that the entire government could or should be privatized, but they should not be allowed collective bargaining. Government unions in general should be illegal. I am not saying government workers are not required in life. That said, in most cases private companies can and do do it cheaper and better, because they can go out of business. Government cant go out of business. But it can and should be shrunk.

2) You actually make my argument for me. People with too much time yet will not get fired, why? Because it is hard as hell to do so, and what will happen to a bad supervisor or sector of government if they are inefficient, nothing unless elected officials chose to do something about it. In the private sector, lax work behavior and poor managment causes companies to go out of business.

3) There have been benefit cuts and wadge decreases all over the private sector. Why should government employees be exempt?

[Jalexian]

Aren't the airlines heavily subsidized? I could be wrong but from what I understand of the industries problems the current business model just is not sustainable due to rising fuel cost and what not. If that's the case the mechanics should just be happy they have a job, as the government has chosen procrastination over actually solving the problem or leaving it to the industry to sort out.....

[MnWilly]

I am a public employee so I have a slightly different perspective. Most of the articles I can find on this WI deal are very poorly written and contain almost no FACTS. I did find the text for the bill being proposed: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/SB-13.pdf

First and foremost I completely agree that public employees need to share the pains of the economic times and should not be insulated from cuts and layoffs. That being said, it is important for people to understand that collective bargaining agreements are, in essence labor contracts. From most of my reading it looks like most government employees in WI pay almost no share of their pension and very little of the cost of their health care. While I think demanding that they contribute more to these benefits is completely reasonable, I think that doing it in the middle of "contracts" is NOT. The state should attempt to balance their budget through other severe measures and visit the benefit issues as the new collective bargaining agreements expire. By other severe means, I suggest layoffs of state employees.

It's almost 100% that through attrition the laid off employees would be back to work within a year or two and I'm sure most will find a way to make it until then. Hundreds of thousands of private employees have found ways to make it so I'm sure the public employees will find a way too.

The proposed bill abolishes the collective bargaining process for public employees except cops and firefighters and a few other employees. To avoid some WTF reactions on why cops and firefighters are exempt (and should be), I’ll explain. Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

I think there was a time when labor unions provided a CRITICAL role in protecting employees from getting screwed over by overzealous employers. In today’s day there are thousands if not tens of thousands of labor laws to help protect employees. There are also teams of government agencies and countless private lawyers out there to protect employees from getting screwed. With that I think that discussing the role of labor unions should be on the table for all lawmakers.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

[Chadwick]

Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

I actually agree with this. These positions are a special case they need the protection collective bargaining provides.

And ya know what, it sucks that those promised certain things will not get them. Pensions specifically. But that's life. There are no guarantees. Just like there is no guarantee that the electronic numbers that represent my retirement IRA will be worth shit when it comes time for me to retire. It's reality...

[Klaus]

Personally I have no problem with police and fire unions for the reasons stated by Mike. I just really hate Teacher and Nurse unions. They demand too much and always use the scare tactics (and walkouts with no recourse) to get what they want. They believe their profession is somehow noble and they should get 50% over the private market for the same work.

The teachers in WI are really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Tax payers pay over 80% of their "pensions" (that word doesn't even exist in the private sector anymore) and they are calling the governor Hitler. WOW



Favorite Tweet from today:

DLoesch Dana Loesch
Because asking people to pay a couple points towards their own health care is JUST LIKE gassing millions of Jews. #idiocy

[Klaus]

Seems reasonable for 9 months of work........ wtf

[Kyrillian]

Everyone in the world is watching these idiots and laughing. These assholes have better benefits than any private worker and get pensions! Pensions are slowly (but surely) becoming extinct.

Unions were made to protect the worker's rights but do we honestly even need that anymore? There are 10 other groups in charge of watching rights now. I don't think if we abolish unions we'll see business owners go back to the practices they had before unions existed. Back then they needed a union so the factory owner wouldn't barricade the fire escape dooming his workers to a burning death, now we need unions because some entitled faggots don't want to pay anything towards their own healthcare and retirement?