Unions

[Klaus]

Been kinda dead on here lately so lets start a topic about unions.....


One of my tasks at work each year is to calculate labor rates to use when we bid jobs (I am working on this today). My company currently does business in two states one is unionized and one isn't. Here is a quick break down:

Union state -

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $57,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $70,000

Non Union State

Basic worker (digs holes, traffic sign holder, etc)
Gross Wages $34,000

Equipment Operator (skilled in driving bobcat/dozer etc)
Gross Wages $45,000


Of course that's just an example of the gross wages and does not take into account the benefits. This is where the big debate in Wisconsin right now is. I work for a private company and much like most reading this I am sure the increase in health insurance premiums etc has been passed on to the employees. With the unions I deal with the increases are passed on to the company. What my company pays the union for a hour of benefits for a union worker is approx double what the company pays toward my benefits, I pay the increases. Also, from the figures above you can see that the union members in my company have higher gross wages before you even consider benefits.

I know unions built this country blah blah but the question is shouldn't the market decide wages and benefits these days?

[Chadwick]

Absolutely.

And more to the point here government worker unions should be illegal.

Why? Because the government by definition is a monopoly. They have a monopoly on force. Thus there is no competing "entity" to give workers a better choice or to balance out the ridiculous handcuffing unions cause the entities they work for...with unnaturally high compensation.

They basically demand and get whatever they want and its up to the taxpayer to pay it.

Well the time of reckoning has come. The pyramid is inverting and will collapse. Wisconsin appears to have realized it and done something, we'll see if they get yelled down or not.

[MnWilly]

I am a public employee so I have a slightly different perspective. Most of the articles I can find on this WI deal are very poorly written and contain almost no FACTS. I did find the text for the bill being proposed: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/2011/data/SB-13.pdf

First and foremost I completely agree that public employees need to share the pains of the economic times and should not be insulated from cuts and layoffs. That being said, it is important for people to understand that collective bargaining agreements are, in essence labor contracts. From most of my reading it looks like most government employees in WI pay almost no share of their pension and very little of the cost of their health care. While I think demanding that they contribute more to these benefits is completely reasonable, I think that doing it in the middle of "contracts" is NOT. The state should attempt to balance their budget through other severe measures and visit the benefit issues as the new collective bargaining agreements expire. By other severe means, I suggest layoffs of state employees.

It's almost 100% that through attrition the laid off employees would be back to work within a year or two and I'm sure most will find a way to make it until then. Hundreds of thousands of private employees have found ways to make it so I'm sure the public employees will find a way too.

The proposed bill abolishes the collective bargaining process for public employees except cops and firefighters and a few other employees. To avoid some WTF reactions on why cops and firefighters are exempt (and should be), I’ll explain. Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

I think there was a time when labor unions provided a CRITICAL role in protecting employees from getting screwed over by overzealous employers. In today’s day there are thousands if not tens of thousands of labor laws to help protect employees. There are also teams of government agencies and countless private lawyers out there to protect employees from getting screwed. With that I think that discussing the role of labor unions should be on the table for all lawmakers.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

[Klaus]

Personally I have no problem with police and fire unions for the reasons stated by Mike. I just really hate Teacher and Nurse unions. They demand too much and always use the scare tactics (and walkouts with no recourse) to get what they want. They believe their profession is somehow noble and they should get 50% over the private market for the same work.

The teachers in WI are really shooting themselves in the foot on this one. Tax payers pay over 80% of their "pensions" (that word doesn't even exist in the private sector anymore) and they are calling the governor Hitler. WOW



Favorite Tweet from today:

DLoesch Dana Loesch
Because asking people to pay a couple points towards their own health care is JUST LIKE gassing millions of Jews. #idiocy

[Chadwick]

Cops and firefighters are forbidden by statute to conduct labor strikes or slowdowns (as it should be). With that, they have almost no recourse for getting completely bent over on a contract. If teachers and other public employees feel completely wronged they can conduct walk-outs and strikes with no consequence. The collective bargaining process is an attempt to even the playing field with negotiations.

Oh, and BTW, WI owes MN millions of dollars in tax collections and it doesn’t look like they intend to pay us back. I say we invade WI now!

I actually agree with this. These positions are a special case they need the protection collective bargaining provides.

And ya know what, it sucks that those promised certain things will not get them. Pensions specifically. But that's life. There are no guarantees. Just like there is no guarantee that the electronic numbers that represent my retirement IRA will be worth shit when it comes time for me to retire. It's reality...

[Klaus]

Seems reasonable for 9 months of work........ wtf

[Kyrillian]

Everyone in the world is watching these idiots and laughing. These assholes have better benefits than any private worker and get pensions! Pensions are slowly (but surely) becoming extinct.

Unions were made to protect the worker's rights but do we honestly even need that anymore? There are 10 other groups in charge of watching rights now. I don't think if we abolish unions we'll see business owners go back to the practices they had before unions existed. Back then they needed a union so the factory owner wouldn't barricade the fire escape dooming his workers to a burning death, now we need unions because some entitled faggots don't want to pay anything towards their own healthcare and retirement?

[kwiikz]

I am just going to point out all unions aren't evil terrible things. While I am relatively new and not the most informed, I just want to bring up my own experience with the issue.

I have been working at UPS for just under 4 years now and have seen both sides of the debate. At first I wasn't at all happy about being unionized, because from what I saw all it did was protect the unskilled and unmotivated workers while at the same time holding back the harder workers from raises and promotions. Since then I have opened up to a more "give and take" perspective. While my personal success is regulated by a majority vote, I receive compensation for working harder in the form of a more lax schedule as well as my boss turning the other way when I make smaller mistakes.

I would also like to point out that while UPS has been doing great as a company with union workers, our competition Fed-Ex (who does not have a union) has been having a lot more troubles and recently forced an airline they contracted with into bankruptcy. Also, from what friends have said that are employed by Fed-Ex, they get the shaft and then some compared to how we are treated at UPS, despite the higher production at my company.

Feel free to tear my argument apart, I know I don't have the experience or the education that some of you do on the matter, but I wanted to provide at least one pro-union post in this thread.

Please keep in mind I am NOT supporting government based unions. UPS unions are funded solely by the company, not tax-payers.

[Trany]

Unions were made to protect the worker's rights but do we honestly even need that anymore? There are 10 other groups in charge of watching rights now.

Exactly they suppress fair market value for skilled jobs, and encourage mediocrity. The ACLU and a label for every dysfunction have allowed for anyone to be qualified as "protected". I think that these states and such have to deal with budget shortfalls, and getting the common "hands off" rhetoric.

The states always say that they are hemorrhaging funds, but look into their finances, you will find case after case of misspent funds. More stances need to be taken like this, I think that the unions need to be broken, look at NWA and the airline mechanics. How did the chest thumping work out there. The "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude of the WI DFL is insulting. They are elected officials and need to do their job, if I don't do my job I don't have one, sent the chumbolones packing.

[kwiikz]

Exactly they suppress fair market value for skilled jobs, and encourage mediocrity. The ACLU and a label for every dysfunction have allowed for anyone to be qualified as "protected". I think that these states and such have to deal with budget shortfalls, and getting the common "hands off" rhetoric.

The states always say that they are hemorrhaging funds, but look into their finances, you will find case after case of misspent funds. More stances need to be taken like this, I think that the unions need to be broken, look at NWA and the airline mechanics. How did the chest thumping work out there. The "I'm taking my ball and going home" attitude of the WI DFL is insulting. They are elected officials and need to do their job, if I don't do my job I don't have one, sent the chumbolones packing.

The NWA mechanics went out on strike because they were expected to take a 26% pay cut. Would you happily stay at your job if your employer told you not only were you not getting a raise, but instead they were just going to pay you less? I see a lot of you saying unions don't need to exist because of employers being ethical nowadays, how is a move like that by a company even remotely "okay" ?