ooooo I smell another can to be opened. How would you raise this money to throw at it?Originally Posted by Chadwick
ooooo I smell another can to be opened. How would you raise this money to throw at it?
I am a little confused. They didn't put up with it, they went on strike, and now everyone except scabs and people who crossed the picked line DID have to go work for someone else. On top of that, NWA had to sell to Delta, which screwed even more people over. To put the icing on the cake, the quality of service provided by the airline turned to shit compared to what it used to be.
As for the seniority based pay, even the hard worker is going to make more inside of most unions nowadays. Also, while yes, some workers do ride the gravy train of mediocrity there is still a very large portion of the work force that does their best solely out of good work ethic and the desire to better the company they work for. I guess I will say it again, but the union will not guarantee bad workers their job. Yes, it is hard to fire them, but companies can find ways to get rid of you. I have seen it on multiple occasions.
On a final note, if you don't want to work for a union then don't. It's as simple as that. And it would also be nice to stop grouping government funded unions with business funded unions. I don't see a single cent of your money in my benefits, they are provided to me by my company who is actually dominating our primary competitor despite our higher wages, pensions, and benefits.
And Jalexi, yes airlines are very heavily subsidized by the government now, but correct me if I am wrong in saying I am pretty sure that happened shortly after NWA went down the hole and other airlines were closely following. Regardless, we are paying the price either way; if the government didn't throw our tax dollars at it than ticket prices would have skyrocketed to keep companies in business.
P.S. Thanks for remembering the 200 bucks
I'm not as concerned with the money so much as the ramifications of the subsidizing. In a true laissez faire, free market system the destiny of those airlines would be left to the market to decide. Faced with the problem of maintaining the lifestyle to which the world has become accustomed, companies and innovators would be forced to actually develop new methods / technologies that actually resolve the problem instead of accepting the current conditions as unavoidable.
Look at spaceflight following NASA's announcement that following the upcoming shuttle launch all future manned space travel was being put on hiatus; although development had already been in the works, the announcement put the pressure on private industry to fill the gap with impressive results. SpaceX ended up getting the Dragon operational, with many other developers close behind.
Obviously the airline industry is a bit different, as it affects the lives of a much greater portion of the population but the idea remains the same. If we let the industry work the problems out, a lasting solution can be attained.
ps: np
It is not hard to do. If someone is clearly not doing their job over a substantial period of time (which I would call 6 months - 1 year), has complaints filed against them from coworkers, and/or is violating set policies, it would take very little effort to can their ass. It all depends on the supervisor. If they are also negligent, then nothing is getting done.
Then...the guy/gal goes and complains to their union and with almost no effort gets their job back. That is the reality of what happens. It takes multiple cases, each with substantial evidence and headaches for the employer dealing with the bullshit for HOURS of non-billable time.
RIP Rocklobster & Straph
Don't forget the back-pay the union member gets for not working while the union fights the dismissal!
Going on strike and leaving for another employer are two very different things.
And what caused them to go down? For what people are willing to pay to fly they cannot pay the costs including labor, fuel, etc that it takes to do so...there is nothing in our constitution that says you have a right to cheap airfare....
I would never work a union job because unions force employers to promise the impossible and then are mad when the don't get it. Durring contract negotiation times unions can spew whatever nonsense and bullshit they want while employers have to be very careful what they say is 100% factual. Teachers unions say it is all about the kids when what it is really all about is their right to retire at 55 with full benefits and pension and then go work somewhere else while living on the public purse. Nurses say it is all about the patient but basically ignore the code of ethics they swore to when walking out on them forcing other hospital workers to pick up the slack. Which was mostly doctors and pharmacists (not replacement nurses). Its about the patients and the number of patients per nurse yet they agreed to a contract that did not affect that at all but did keep their pension...
Ya know what i say to that? Go fuck yourselves you lying twats...
Tell me this: Why did the big three automakers all basically have to get bailed out by the government (union outfits). When automakers like, Hyndai, Toyota, Honda, etc all hurt very little and for a very short time and are now again thriving?
Why did mazda's financial situation improve when ford sold the company back to them?
Why did the non-union airlines survive with much less or no subsidies when the big union ones were going under and needed saving?
And, dude, i hope you are not depending on your pension, if you in fact have one, because i guarantee you it wont be there when you retire...
Yet with all of my hate for unions i still think they have a place in the American private sector. IF and only if the company stands on its own as a private company. But, if any company is subsidized they should not be allowed to be unionized. It is a morally bankrupt conflict of interest where selfish people expect their neighbors who are all taking pay cuts and benefit cuts to keep theirs intact. But the pinnacle are public sector unions. That is the prime conflict of interest, and the only out that the taxpayers (which is only about half the populace now) have is to elect officials to do EXACTLY what they are doing in Wisconsin. I hope it happens and i hope every one of those sniveling, running scared democrat state senators gets fined at least and at best spend some time in prison for dereliction of duty.
Why do we as a country want to keep broken ideas and dysfunctional organizations alive? The best thing about this country is when a company or other entity stopped being effective and efficient. It died. And from those ashes BETTER companies are formed by people who saw or were a part of the problems, got a clean slate and a niche to fill and went after it making for an overall better economy and society...
Last edited by Chadwick; 02-23-2011 at 10:29 AM.
RIP Rocklobster & Straph
It sounds like they passed a quick bill last night in WI that the senators that skipped town will not get their pay direct deposited but need to show up on the house floor to get a paper check. Holy shit they still get paid! If I skip a week of work not only do I not get paid but probably lose me job.
I have seen someone get fired in our section, and that is not what happened, and I am sure she was under some sort of government workers union. And I am fairly certain it was simply done due to negligence and slacking.
Granted that is the only person I have seen get fired in our section. But it is definitely not nearly as impossible as you make it sound.
If you've been lucky enough to be witness to the rare practice of firing a government worker, you've probably not been able to see the process that takes place after. If the person chooses to, they can file grievances and complaints with the union which then require the supervisor and sometimes multiple supervisors to appear and justify their reasons for firing the person.
So what happens is no one wants to deal with that headache so the only people you see getting fired are the ones that are the worst of the worst. If someone is just a little below average, it's not worth the hassle to try and replace them.
I've seen this first hand as my mother is a state worker. She has someone in her own department who does maybe 5-10% of the work in the department with my mother and the other worker there splitting the remaining 90-95%. This woman has been there 20+ years and there is no getting rid of her.
In the state system to most common way of getting rid of a problem worker is recommending them for a promotion in another department or location.
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